Home › Forums › General › Help and information › Ex Air ministry Alcon Pumps
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sidevalve5.
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June 24, 2025 at 7:21 pm #43839
davidbliss
ParticipantAndy
On both pumps there are non-return flap valves just inside the threaded suction hose connection, so not really foot valves but do same thing not on the pipe, and both pumps are sort of the same, the faster priming one has a smaller water re-circling jet and different housing where the ball fits. I did take it into Panks and they said never seen one like it and with difficulty of fitting a modern seal fitted the same type back from the other pump but that soon leaked again and swapped the crankshaft as was a little better and that’s been ok since, did put a drain hole so if it leaked again water wouldn’t be so likely to get into the oil, did the same but larger hole to the other when the left over’s were assembled, there are many differences between those engines as one has several extra bumps and the odd plugged hole for something, different valve chest thats sort of open, with a very heavy grove in the cylinder bore that goes round about a turn nearing bottom of piston stroke and the other is a much better engineered looking thing so what came first. The well used engine is numbered 36812/40 and the other has the Alcon plate 2334/132 so similar stampings, so crude in one part but better made in another. Was told who knows? Being Air Ministry was done for experimental or special job?.June 24, 2025 at 9:30 pm #43845andyfrost
ParticipantDavid , the groove you refer to was an idea/design that JAP toyed with for a short period , it was also used on 4/3 , 5 models , but was quickly dropped. So in it’s original format that engine would have been fitted with a carb with the JAP logo cast into the fuel bowl , it was a very similar looking carb to the Zenith13. Traces of yellow paint on the carb in one of your pics tells us quite clearly that it is a mixture of old/new bits and pieces.
Andy
June 26, 2025 at 7:58 am #43848davidbliss
ParticipantAndy
It isn’t yellow paint and for some reason with the LED light ether over exposed bits and changed material colour, its 60 years of crud from evaporated petrol, some places it was on very thick but did blow off a bit. that carb in my infancy I fitted for my father, as originals with the ball floats being dented looking like golf balls often after being left would go back to start it only to find been leaking. Looking back that pump was a real life line as the farms only water supply was the Bore hole that Panks put down in 1942 that regularly was out of action in the driest times so was a great help watering stock from ponds. Original carbs had T 12 and T 13 on with C1266? no JAP script, ordering a new carb I somehow was afraid when asked for butterfly orientation had got it wrong? well if I hadn’t would still have got the blame, luckily that carbs neck was universal moulded and I re-drilled and plugged and he never knew. In those early days my equipment to make anything was gutter bolts, hacksaw, file and Black&Decker drill, that carb number 01433C type 13TCA-2 and the later new correct one I fitted 01392 from just over 20 years ago.June 26, 2025 at 8:15 am #43851andyfrost
ParticipantOK David , but I can assure you the first 2As were fitted with the JAP carb , the Zenith came much later.
Andy.
June 26, 2025 at 10:01 am #43852sidevalve5
ParticipantMy pump saga has been an interesting one. My original irrigation system was a bit of a hotchpotch of bits and pieces I had picked up over the years that included the Villiers/Alcon pump. In 2011 I purchased the Hunter MP2000 Rotators and found straight away the Villiers pump would not supply enough pressure. It always took 3+ minutes to pull water up from a well and knew it was therefore not performing as it should. I dropped on the Honda/Clark pump, it was better (26m or 85ft max head), but still not really enough pressure. I revisited some of my early training in pump performance graphs, the pressure and flow rates required for differing irrigation systems. I then got a very secondhand Honda/Loncin thermoplastic pump that supplied near optimal pressure, nearly 35 psi. If fact this was better than that stated in the manufacturer’s performance graph. But did not like using it, the priming filler cap was small and fiddly, it had been left outside, nuts and bolts could not be undone without damage or breaking. The engine was thirsty and ran a bit rough, it really needed a good overhaul, but did not fancy the probable drilling out of snapped studs. The next year I came across a Robin/Koshin SEH-50X for peanuts, the pump is top of the range with a 30m or 100ft head. Knew if I took the pump off it and mated it with the new Honda engine, fitting a new seal too. I would have a brilliant as new bit of kit and that was what I used until 2021. To buy one new today would be £350-500. What I did not know was the Robin engine was a good one. So I mated that up to the Clark pump and put it away for use as a spare. The additional benefit was where both engine shafts showed evidence of wear at the position where the rotary part of the seal is meant to gain a fixed grip on the shaft. By swapping them over, it placed them in different positions. In other words, the seal gripped onto an unworn part of both shafts.
In 2021 I was given the Evenshower Oscillating Spraylines. I wanted to use it instead of the Hunter Rotators, because although I could get good pressure from the pump. Slime that formed in the over-ground supply pipe used to block up the filter in short order, reducing flow. Spraylines do not need the higher pressure offered by the Koshin pump, so used the Robin/Clark pump instead. It is less noisy and sips less fuel than the bigger GX160 Honda. Did some testing, this system requires a delivery of 7GPM at 12 – 15 psi. The label on the recently acquired 1½” Alcon pump states the maximum head is 66ft (28.5 psi), but do not have a performance graph. So do not know the pressure when the flow is 7GPM. But fully expect it to be fine as the flow rate is so low, especially after seeing David’s video with the impressive jet of water going into the pond and still maintaining 20 psi. I have not started the Villiers/Alcon unit since 2011. Am going to try to get the JAP 2a working and see if it pumps. If it does I shall then carry out suction vacuum and delivery pressure tests. As I will have the testing kit out, will do the same for the Villiers/Alcon.
Have checked my 2a pump set and there is a hole on the section of casting that goes from the engine to the pump body on the carburettor side next to the bottom casting web. So if any water gets past the seal will drain out and not get into the engine. But I think my pump is a bog standard one, whereas David’s may have been a special order. The Villiers/Alcon has this section of casting spaced off the crankcase and I recall water coming out of it before I replaced the seal. Have thought again about the Villiers/Alcon not achieving what seems to be the recognized reading of a minimum of 20 in-Hg on a vacuum test for single stage water pumps. As it only has a head of 66ft, it may correspondingly have a lower ability to lift. It will be interesting again to test the pump and make some comparisons with others now I have more experience with them. When I last did it 14 years ago I was more interested in getting enough pressure to operate the Hunter system.
Villiers/Alcon sets were the most common pumps used by small market gardeners around Evesham for their almost universal sprayline irrigation. Larger growers had bigger kit. Evenproducts were an Evesham company and still exist, but the old premises now exclusively manufacture corrugated round steel water tanks with butyl liners. They once did have a large irrigation department and may have sold Villiers/Alcon pumps that they would match to an irrigation system’s requirements. My father had a two cylinder Lister diesel engine permanently fixed in a pump house attached to a single stage centrifugal pump. It was fed from a reservoir which in turn was fed from a borehole that was put in the 1950’s and went down 70-90ft to water bearing limestone strata. It never stopped running, but could not supply enough water into the reservoir in 24 hours for the irrigation system to run at full capacity. The water needed to be carefully managed in dry periods. The diesel pump could supply enough water for two large rainguns or a big field scale sprinkler system. But on the smaller parcels of land away from the main holding, a small petrol pump pulled water from a well and fed spraylines. A big pump would drain the well too quickly, he had a Villiers/Alcon unit. The two wells I use on separate pieces of land contain 750 and 1250 gallons respectively and take 2 – 3 days to refill. A sprayline can be as much as 16off 15’ sections long and would require a supply of 800 gallons per hour. For a good soaking, it needs to run for at least 2½ hours, or 2000 gallons. It is horses for courses and where an understanding of supply capacity, pump performance graphs, flow rates, delivery pipe sizing, pressure requirements and precipitation rates is needed. Everything has to link up for a successful system. Most mobile petrol pumps are the single stage centrifugal type with a manufacturer’s maximum pressure ranging between 20 – 35 metres of head (29 – 50 psi) so can be used for a small irrigation system. Including an Alcon. As long as the flow rate does not reduce the pressure to below that what is required at the nozzles.
Where I was caught out was the Hunter specifications stated a 16’ radius at the minimum pressure of 25 psi. It never achieved this, it was more like 13’, the rotators got stuck, the water was not atomized correctly. At 30 psi performance was nearer to that specified, at 35 psi, even better. It’s why I tried multiple pumps. But not all was in vain, from memory each pump was about £30, the seals less and I have ended up with 3 good pumps, 4 if the Villiers seal is not leaking, 5 if the JAP works. More important to me, I have greatly enjoyed the journey.
Locally we have not had any proper rain since the end of February, so my wells and irrigation had been a lifeline too. The ground water levels have not dropped as I would have expected though, after refilling, the water in the wells is only about a foot lower than a ‘normal’ dry period!
Foot valves are used where there is an opportunity to eliminate manually priming the pump (filling it with water before starting) and often fitted to a semi or fully permanently fixed pump’s suction pipe. They keep water in the pipe, so there is little lag between starting and actual delivery. For mobile units where the suction hose is removed out of the water after each use, they do not have a purpose.
Most pumps used for horticulture have an internal flap valve as David has described. These prevent water from going out of the pump body when not in use, or when being primed before starting. When the pump starts with water in the body the action of the impeller within the volute creates a vacuum in the suction pipe and this ‘lifts’ water into the pump. It is when this process is going through it’s motion that the seal is under the greatest test. If air is sucked through the seal, or through the hose connection, the negative pressure of the vacuum is not sufficient to lift water by the amount required. So when a pump does not pump, or takes ages to start delivering water, firstly check all the connections on the suction side. If these are fine, then the seal is suspect. You can leave water in the pump between uses and not prime, relying on the flap valve to retain enough water in the body. From experience, this extends the time to takes to start delivering water. So I always top up the body anyway, unless it is used for stop/start operations within a working day. But after finding signs of corrosion on the steel engine shaft of each pump I have taken apart. I now ALWAYS drain them when I disconnect the hoses. Although I did this before because when I picked them up, water could slosh out from the flap valve, usually onto my leg, or in the van.
June 26, 2025 at 12:14 pm #43853davidbliss
ParticipantWhat you need is a small two stage fire pump so pressure not volume, I was always at Knights engineers for anything from re-bores to any type of shaft grinding, they had a small splined shaft that had been hard chromed in places and was set up for grinding it back. They said here you are guess what sort of engine and hp drives onto that shaft, well I thought looking at the shaft at a guess thought like about a MK25 Villiers of hp rated, I was a bit out and had un-knowingly seen it at work, 900RPM 5 cylinder Gardener driving a large multi V belted pulley down to a small pulley that must have given a 5-1 ratio done for irrigation at Blooms nurseries. Two stage is the way to go, I have a 50s Stuart 3/4 inch motor .5 HP at 2800RPM head and GPH should be there but couldn’t find it and think the head was well up with the Alcon.
June 26, 2025 at 2:31 pm #43854sidevalve5
ParticipantDid look at two stage as the optimum pressure required for the Hunter rotators was 40 psi. But had to factor in cost of the pump, cost of the extra fuel to obtain that pressure, the pressure exerted on the existing pipework and connections, would still have the slime problem blocking the filter. Can get second hand single stage petrol pumps for £30-£40, there is loads available, it’s just a matter a choosing the best one. When using hoses, especially layflat pipes, leaks at high pressures is an issue. The amount of slime I got, meant I had to clean the filter after just a couple of hours irrigation, which was a pain.
Went to a sale at a nursery a few years ago and they could not sell a couple of two stage vertical electric two stage irrigation pumps. I was tempted to put my hand up, could have got them both for a fiver, as I had an idea of doing similar to yourself. After the experience gained from fixing the petrol pumps, knew I could repair the pumps if they did not work by fitting a new seal. Could take the electric motor off and put a V belt drive from a petrol engine, gearing as required. What put me off was I also knew it would be much heavier than a portable pump. When irrigating, I transport the pump to the well in my van, when finished, take it away again, putting it back into store. Unfortunately anything that a man can lift, if not securely fixed or hidden away and might have some value, even just for scrap, gets nicked around here.
For me, a sprayline was the way to go. Had pumps in the shed I could use, low output requirements supposed the input (fuel) reduced too, lower pressure meant there are hardly any leaks, the larger nozzles do not block with slime, so could remove the filter. Additionally I like to see and use traditional market gardening equipment. I enjoy bringing what most view as scrap back into a good (near new if I can) working condition and then using it as it was intended. As stated, it’s horses for courses, high pressures and flow rates require the correct equipment. For me it’s a pump I can take out the back of my van each time, pump at 7GPM to only 12-15psi. A small lightweight single stage petrol pump delivering a modest head is ideal.
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