Howard Bantam/Villiers 25C

[vhgmcbuddy]

Hi all. Just acquired a Bantam which I think has a Villiers 25C on it.
I’ve discovered your lovely site as a result – it doesn’t run of course 🙂

So far, I’ve discovered no spark, and the piston rings are no good.
So 2 questions I hope you may be able to help with:
1, how do I ensure I’ve got the right engine. Theres no numbers I can see
2, where can I get new rings
3, how do I get the flywheel off to gain access to the magneto – the head of the bolt in the started pulley is knackered. Is this left or right handed?

Many thanks in anticipation,
New Member Jim

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[charlie]

Welcome to the forum. No spark may just be dirty points which can be accessed through the webs of the flywheel. The starter pulley is held on by either two bolts or a central bolt which screws into the end of the flywheel bolt which is a right hand thread and is a special bolt that after initial loosening will go tight again as it starts to pull flywheel off. I only have details of the 25C fitted to the Allen Scythe which may differ slightly. For piston rings and other spares try Meetens.

[vhgmcbuddy]

Hi Charlie and thanks for the reply.
I will try again with the central bolt. Its done up tight, and almost completely rounded off. Might have to get a grinder on it 🙁
What are the 4 nuts around the circumference of the vaned flywheel for?
I will contact Meetens on Tuesday.
Cheers

[wristpin]

What are the 4 nuts around the circumference of the vaned flywheel for?

If I’m on the same track, they are the ones that hold the ring of cooling fins to the flywheel. Those fins are not very strong so don’t be tempted to try and lock the flywheel using them!!
Before attacking that centre bolt with a grinder just make sure that you can lay your hands on a suitable replacement. Might be better to get a nut welded to it.

[vhgmcbuddy]

Hi Angus.
Well I have managed to remove the flywheel bolt. Had to hammer a socket onto the rounded off head and use an air impact gun in the end. As you suggest, I will now weld a nut onto the head of the old one. I’ll probably turn the old head down first.
The points were actually rusted together. They now move OK and I’ve filed new faces, but not sure I’m getting a spark yet. There’s currently no cylinder/piston on the motor, with the con-rod flopping about from the crank. I will have to wait to get the new rings before reassembling the top half and running the crank at speed.
What else could be wrong with the ignition system that is replaceable?
Cheers both,
Jim

[charlie]

Jim glad to hear you managed to get the flywheel off. The Villiers coils do have a reputation for failing. If replacing the coil I would recommend spending the extra and also replace the points and condenser you will then be sure of a good spark. Corrosion between backplate and various components bolted to it can also be a problem as this is the way they are earthed.

[vhgmcbuddy]

Hi Charlie.
Thanks for that. Once the central bolt goes tight again, do I just keep turning it?
How much is a complete set of coils, points and condensor going to set me back?

Also, isn’t the 25C a fours stroke motor?? Mine is a 2 stroke so I still need to confirm the motor type. I cannot see any identification numbers on it.

Jim

[andyfrost]

Can’t echo Charlies words enough , it may appear costly to completely renew the magneto components , but in the long run it will be the difference between losing your temper trying to start it , and having a machine that will start FIRST pull.
Speak to Paul Childs at Meetens , he will have all the parts you need.

Andy.

[wristpin]

Well, that’s progress; sometimes with this old kit “needs must” has to take presidence over “good practice”!
As Charlie says, Villiers coils are a known issue but in fairness, if it is original, it is probably over 50 years old !
Go for a new or rewound coil and not a “new old stock” one that may have hidden internal corrosion. As well as Meetens, Villiers Services and Villiers Parts are both good sources but when comparing prices be aware that some include vat and some don’t. For the sake of another £10/12 a new condenser could save a lot of hassle.

[vhgmcbuddy]

Thanks for the advice everyone.
As above, I’m still not convinced I’ve correctly identified the engine type. Is the 25C a four stroke? Mines a 2.
Can anyone tell from the original pic I posted?

Cheers,
Jim

[andyfrost]

Jim , yes it’s a 25C (twostroke).

Andy.

[charlie]

Yes keep turning after it goes tight, it designed to pull the flywheel off the taper which is why it will go tight. When putting the flywheel back make sure crank and flywheel surfaces of taper are clean and free of oil, for final tightening use an old spaaner and give it a good wack with a hammer. If it is not tight enough it will slip and throw the timing out.

[vhgmcbuddy]

Cheers Charlie.
Whacking will commence in the morning.

[vhgmcbuddy]

Excellent progress.
Flywheel removed after locking crank with a bit of old wood – what a clever arrangement for splitting a morse-tapered shaft.
Back plate with all electrical bits on removed ready for investigation. I’ll probably renew all the bits, but it does seem a shame to lose that lovely original Villiers coil.

So obviously, the position of the flywheel on the crank sets the timing. Is there a set-up guide somewhere to help me reposition it on assembly?

Thanks for all the advice so far,
Jim

PS – I also have the option to get hold of 2x Howard GEMs. Are these worth having?

[will-haggle]

There is a wire in there, it’s a good idea to replace it as well. One member had a very frustrating time getting a spark until someone alerted him to the fact that it could be corroded as well – it was! It’s in the archive somewhere – I’ll have a look….

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